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Undivided Estate

The mystery of Land Patents unveiled.

Moderators: Tnias, Jus

DogLeg55
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Undivided Estate

Postby DogLeg55 » Saturday August 15th, 2015 11:17 pm MDT

Dear Sirs,
if you have purchased 50% of an undivided estate in TX through quit claim deeds and the other heirs will not sell, can you secure your part of the property with the patent?

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SimplyThinkDreams
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Re: Undivided Estate

Postby SimplyThinkDreams » Monday August 17th, 2015 8:41 pm MDT

DogLeg55:
When one owns 50 percentage of an undivided estate, the property is either owned in joint tenancy, tenancy in common, or tenancy in the entirety. Obviously, I can have no idea which applies to your property ownership without seeing the deed. In any of the above cases, one does not own a specific parcel or portion of the property; rather, one owns a percentage interest in the property as a whole.

Owning an interest in property is distinctly different from owning Land. To better understand how Land ownership works, please read Land 101.

The direct answer to your question is no. It is functionally impossible to secure your part of the property with the Land patent. Your part of the property in an undivided estate is merely a percentage interest in the estate as a whole.

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Re: Undivided Estate

Postby DogLeg55 » Monday August 17th, 2015 8:58 pm MDT

Thank you sir for your reply, in other words I will have to file for a partition suit to divide the property before I can file for a patent.
:h: Inserted by Admin:
What?
We have to ask: ‘Did you even read SimplyThinkDreams’ response?’

SimplyThinkDreams made no reference to filing any kind of lawsuit.
Go back and look again. SimplyThinkDreams gave you the simplest answer possible to your question: “No.”
SimplyThinkDreams further clarified that answer meant: “No…It is functionally impossible to secure your part of the property with the Land patent” when “your part of the property in an undivided estate is merely a percentage interest in the estate as a whole.”

SimplyThinkDreams also gave you a bit of information regarding the types of tenancy under which multiple parties can hold property.

More importantly, SimplyThinkDreams made it quite clear that you need to go back and read the Land 101 article
:t^:

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Re: Undivided Estate

Postby SimplyThinkDreams » Monday August 17th, 2015 9:15 pm MDT

Actually, what you should have taken away from my post is that you need to educate yourself on the distinct difference between Land ownership and property ownership. Further, you need to educate yourself on what the actual interest you own is; and, whether you have any right to the Land. You need to find out if your quit claim deed even grants any interest in Land; or, if it simply conveys property appurtenant to the Land. I'm not so sure a suit to partition would accomplish your desires; but, I haven't done all the requisite research to know for sure. However, from my current knowledge base, a partition suit would only effect the property appurtenant to the land and not the land itself.

DogLeg55
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Re: Undivided Estate

Postby DogLeg55 » Monday August 17th, 2015 11:29 pm MDT

The quit claim deeds are for 50 % of the real estate, from my interpatation the land can only be secured through patent.
:h: Inserted by Admin:
What? Again, we have to ask: ‘Did you even read SimplyThinkDreams’ response?’ We ask because, SimplyThinkDreams again directed you to the necessity of your learning:
  1. The difference between 'landownership' and 'property ownership'; which difference you should have learned by reading the Land 101 article;
  2. What is the actual interest you own;
  3. Whether your quit claim deed grants you any interest in Land; or, simply conveys property appurtenant to the Land.
Also, we have no idea what: “interpatation” means. Respectively, please use a spell checker when you post.
:t^:

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Re: Undivided Estate

Postby SimplyThinkDreams » Wednesday August 19th, 2015 4:18 pm MDT

DogLeg55:
In order to secure Land via patent; one must have an actual interest in the Land. If you were never granted the Land, then you have no right to the Title (Land Patent) to the Land.

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Re: Undivided Estate

Postby KingWm » Wednesday August 19th, 2015 6:06 pm MDT

DogLeg55:
I have seen in a couple of your posts a reference to "filing" for a patent. There is no way to file for a patent. The patent already exists; and, you are either an assignee of the original patentee or you are not. You will have to read the deeds in the chain of title to you to confirm whether the land was granted to you.

You are asking questions that likely have already been answered in the forums. SimplyThinkDreams suggested you read the Land 101 article and that is a good start. There are other articles linked to from the Land 101 article. Search the forums and read all you can find regarding land and you will likely find most, if not all, of your answers.

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Re: Undivided Estate

Postby Admin » Saturday August 22nd, 2015 3:18 pm MDT

DogLeg55 wrote:if you have purchased 50% of an undivided estate in TX through quit claim deeds and the other heirs will not sell, can you secure your part of the property with the patent?

:h: DogLeg55:
We have reviewed all of the above posts and acknowledge that the beneficiaries responding to your posts have given you excellent replies. Still, after reading all of that we wanted to reiterate the importance of going back and reading and rereading the Land 101 article until you understand it.

Also, you lucked out by having those that responded getting to your post before Admin did; because, given that your inquiry was basically: “if you have purchased 50% …can you secure…?”, we would have first pointed you to Rule 10; which prohibits our responding to hypothetical situations; and, to Rule 5; which makes it quite clear that we will not give you advice.

Again, at Team Law, our purpose is to help people learn how to learn the law so they can learn how to apply the law properly. We would also likely have pointed you to the Standard for Review as well as to the Land 101 article; at which point our response would likely have ended. However, there were also some presuppositions made in your inquiry to which we may have also responded; those are:
  1. Though a “Quitclaim Deed” might be an instrument through which one may convey land and/or property appurtenant to land, a “Quitclaim Deed” is not a purchase agreement;
  2. Quitclaim deeds do not necessarily convey anything—they only convey what they specifically describe; and, that only if the party making the quitclaim deed is actually an owner of that which is described as being so deeded ; and,
  3. Where the “Land Patent” is the “Title” to land, the quitclaim deed is merely a color of title instrument. Wherefore, even if your question had been properly posed, it is virtually impossible to reasonably answer such an inquiry without seeing both the Quitclaim Deed and any other underlying color of title instruments (warranty deeds, etc.); and, review of such instruments is limited to Team Law beneficiary support.
However, because your inquiry received so much support from others, you didn’t get that reply from Admin until now.

Though some people imagine such responses are made to criticize, they are certainly not intended to be; instead, they are made as instructions to help you get on the right track as soon as possible. Given that Team Law is a self-help educational service, it should be no surprise that when reviewing a post we sometimes need to first correct it and point out the rules for using this forum—then we can move towards helping you follow the best path to discovering the learning you desire.

The simple fact remains—it is virtually impossible to learn how to learn the law by starting in the present looking at a relationship and hoping to understand it with almost no understanding of the related history, law and language of law. Thus, it is so critical to start with the Standard for Review and the bare minimum knowledge available to you from the Land 101 article.

Of course, having Team Law beneficiary support is like icing on the cake when it comes to shortening the learning curve necessary to deal with emergent circumstances.

We hope this information is helpful to you.
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and of our spouses, our children, and our peace.
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DogLeg55
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Re: Undivided Estate

Postby DogLeg55 » Saturday August 22nd, 2015 11:26 pm MDT

Dear Sirs, I apologize for my wording in some of the posts & should have presented it more in legal terms, the Quit claim deeds are for an undivided estate ( 101 acres of real estate ) there is only 1 abstract title on this property since the patent to this estate, which they never have accepted the land rights because they did'nt know the law. The Estate has been in this family for over a 100 years. It was originally 140 acres but through the years the companies have whittled it down moving there lines over every few years, filing uncontested in new surveys. I own 50 % of this & have surveyed it & fenced it to stop further theft. I own all the rights to half this property from the heirs purchased by quit claim deeds. No heirs have a deed it is still undivided for 4 generations. I have been paying taxes and running cattle on this property for 10 years.

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Re: Undivided Estate

Postby Admin » Thursday August 27th, 2015 6:53 am MDT

:h: DogLeg55:
No apology necessary. Again, think of this process as a college level educational experience where you are learning how to learn the law, history and the language of law; as you do, you will hopefully understand there is no need for apologies. You simply start wherever you are with whatever skills you have and you improve from there as far as you are willing to go. We simply help you learn how to learn the law and that which follows.

Respectively, your language usage should not be forced, or contrived, into some sort of ‘legalese’; rather, it should be simple natural English language usage that states what you want it to state in as clear and concise a manner as you can make it. (Always expect that to improve as you go along.)

For clarification: the term: “abstract title” refers to a specific type of instrument generated by researching land records from the Title (aka: “land patent”) to the present and extracting (abstracting) specific title transfer information from those records, which information is recorded in said instrument that when completed is the: “Abstract Title”.

Thus, such an instrument can be generated at any time by anyone that desires to generate an abstract title. Such instruments are most often generated by Land & Title companies; and, they can be certified. A Certified Abstract Title differs from any other such instrument by the certification; which is generally made by an attorney that guarantees that the so certified instrument is true correct and complete.

Today, most such companies are no longer willing to generate such certified instruments in favor of selling title insurance. Nonetheless, such instruments, certified or not, have no actual effect on the Title itself or on the chain of documents (color of title) that shows who the heirs and assigns are as defined on the Land Patent (Title) itself.

Respectively, we do not know what you mean when you write: “there is only 1 abstract title on this property since the patent to this estate”.

That sentence continued as follows: “which they never have accepted the land rights because they did'nt know the law.” Again, we were at a loss to understand that. In English language that usage of: “which” is defined as a “hypnotic ambiguity” because, it is impossible for the reader to distinguish whether the “which” referred to the “abstract title”, the “patent” or the “estate”.

If we mentally change the “which” to “; and,” the balance of that sentence becomes a related sentence structure of its own; however, it too leaves us wondering what they did to avoid accepting the land rights and what they needed to know in the law that would have helped them accept their assigned land rights.

Given that the Estate has been in the family for over 100 years, it seems like they would have automatically accepted and used their land rights. It also seemed like you were alleging that some companies (presumably external to your family’s control) somehow forced the family to convey off parts of the whole.

Finally, we understand that you own a 50% interest in the whole parcel of land. However, we didn’t see any inquiry in that post; and, as it is, we didn’t have sufficient information to allow us to further clarify anything for you.

Still, it seems like the issue you are dealing with is one where you need help learning how to learn the law such that you can learn how you want to resolve your current situation. And, though reading the Land 101 article and other related posts on our forum and website may help you get a head start, the level of help you seem to need is reserved to Team Law beneficiary support. Respectively, we can only provide that to you after you are a Team Law beneficiary.

We hope this information is helpful to you.
Tell everybody about Team Law! :t^:
Team Law,

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and of our spouses, our children, and our peace.
"


As with all Forum posts, comments made by Admin are:
copyrighted—all rights reserved; and, provided here for educational purposes only.

DogLeg55
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Re: Undivided Estate

Postby DogLeg55 » Friday August 28th, 2015 10:41 pm MDT

The property was deeded to a slave when he was freed & no other deed exist excepting the quit claims I have from the heirs. No property was conveyed, the county judge claimed his family moved the creek & resurveyed his property filing uncontested without telling anyone for several years.

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Re: Undivided Estate

Postby Admin » Saturday August 29th, 2015 4:33 pm MDT

:h: DogLeg55:
We are quite certain that by this time all of those that have read this topical thread are wondering at least two things:
  1. What is the point of your inquiry?
    • At this point, the only inquiry you've made in this topical thread was: “Can you secure your part of the property with the patent?” And, that point was answered by the first response.
  2. Have you followed any of the suggestions those that have posted replies to your posts to learn anything about either learning how to learn the law or Team Law and the nature of our service.
    • Again, the purpose of this forum is found at Rule 3; respectively, the responses you have received were given to help you as you begin to learn how to learn the law; yet, we must wonder by your replies whether you have followed anything anyone has thus far provided. It seems like you are still trying to clarify you only point of inquiry and that point was already accurately answered.
Further, because you exceeded Rule 31’s five post limit, set for those that are not Team Law beneficiaries, you will not likely be enabled to reply to this post until you are a Team Law beneficiary; wherefore, we hope you will find this post (and the red text comments we inserted in your other posts in this topical thread) helpful to you.

Nonetheless, please understand: Team Law is a self-help educational service. That is, we help people learn how to learn the law from their own first-hand study of the same. Thus, if you are not willing to use and apply the help offered here it is not likely that we can help you. We added that comment to your last reply here because your above replies consistently seemed to have been made:
  1. Without taking any benefit from the responses others made to your posts;
  2. Off-point from any inquiry relevant to this topical thread; and,
  3. Without any care of interest in using this service for anything relevant to Team Law’s purpose or our purpose in providing this forum.
However, if you did, in fact, use the replies provided by those that responded above and if you learned anything from that experience, then please, use this opportunity now to take advantage of becoming a Team Law Beneficiary as soon as possible; so, that you may continue to work with us to learn how to learn (and apply) the law. Respectively, if you have rights to the Land, the land patent will secure those rights regardless of whether you have full rights or only partial rights. Nonetheless, as was well stated by Chief Justice Warren Burger: “If you don’t know what your rights are, you don’t have any.”

We can help you learn how to learn what those rights are—if you are willing to so learn.

We hope this information is helpful to you.
Tell everybody about Team Law! :t^:
Team Law,

"In memory of our God, our faith, and freedom,
and of our spouses, our children, and our peace.
"


As with all Forum posts, comments made by Admin are:
copyrighted—all rights reserved; and, provided here for educational purposes only.


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