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What do you need to get a Land Patent?

The mystery of Land Patents unveiled.

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Cricketol
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What do you need to get a Land Patent?

Postby Cricketol » Sunday January 18th, 2009 1:54 pm MST

whats the minimum u need for a Land Patent
..
do u need a loan or could u get a Land Patent for a abandon house and fix it and live there?
and the one how challenges u would that be the old land patent holder or the dead holder? or can both do so
i dont have good credit thats why i ask thanks

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Re: What do you need to get a Land Patent?

Postby Electra225 » Wednesday January 21st, 2009 7:26 am MST

From one registered user to another, please read the topic 'Do you own your land', and within that you will find the link 'Land 101'. All of this will clearly help you understand everything you need to know about land patents (for now). Read it all twice if you need to. In fact, you will also get much more knowlegde if you start at the beginning of the land patent topic and read ALL the questions and repsonses as I did, and it helped a great deal.

Be blessed as you teach yourself.
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Re: What do you need to get a Land Patent?

Postby Cricketol » Friday January 23rd, 2009 12:22 am MST

Ok. I am reading it and it seems kind of contradictory to itself it said I don't need to pay but to get the Deeds to get a land patent I would need to pay?? or am I mis-reading it? That's why I am asking.

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Re: What do you need to get a Land Patent?

Postby UE Admiral » Saturday January 24th, 2009 6:43 pm MST

It is not contradictory at all. The definition of "land" in the law is merely a measured space, regardless of the contents of that space. Additionally, because of the nature of "land," it may not hold any sort of equivalent value when compared to chattel property. Chattel is moveable, and land is not. Whereas dirt and grass and other such contents of the "land" ARE movable, they are chattel and may hold an exchangeable value. Land, however, may only be granted; not bought by exchanging chattel for land.

When you "buy" land, you aren't paying for the "land;" you are paying for the contents thereof: soil, dust, house, shed, stray toys left by the previous owner, underground wiring, and the like. You pay for the chattel, and the owner grants you the land. Then again, I do not see what obliges him to grant the land in the first place (unless through prearranged contract). It'd be interesting if one could simply sell the chattel on one's land, and charge the new owner of said chattel for the use of the land.

However, after reading over the WARN newsletter (page 14) where:
Team Law wrote:Now, look at your Warranty Deed, if you have one and notice how it's written.

You’ll find words to the effect of the following: “For valuable consideration received”, The Grantor admits being paid and further, “grants and/or assigns, bargains, sells, and conveys”, the property along with all of its appurtenances and hereditaments, to the new land owner (you) and to your heirs and/or assigns forever. Which means you can’t sell it but you can assign it or pass it on to your heirs.

So, it is not because of the nature of "land," that one may not sell it; rather, it appears to be due to a clause in the contract that one agreed to upon accepting the land grant. I'll need to do more reading to discover exactly how this all works, but that is what I understand thus far.

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Re: What do you need to get a Land Patent?

Postby Cricketol » Sunday January 25th, 2009 12:04 am MST

Ok, well I think a lot of people are getting off topic; Ok, one person said, “look at your Warranty Deed” …however, I don’t have one. I need one to get Land right?
How do I get a Warranty Deed without a loan or with a loan? That’s the point of my inquiry, sorry. I don’t have any kind of credit to get a loan to get a house (Land) or even a car at that; this is what I am trying to ask…
How to get the land…in other ways (like in the old way); so I can have something for me and my family.

Ok…uyou can't buy land..; but u can buy the house on the land … right? … oOk, iI take it anyone that is reading this has a house right..? iIf uyou do then iI don't know how much help uyou really could be but if uyou do; cool… iI don't have a house iI live in an apartment not in a house how iI see all this working is, if uyou get a loan for a house then get the Warranty Deed or something similar to start the process of getting the land patent.

sSo with out having the house... at all, what do iI need to obtain a land patent for?
iI may have worded all this wrong, sorry for the confusion.

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Re: What do you need to get a Land Patent?

Postby Admin » Sunday January 25th, 2009 11:14 pm MST

:h: Cricketol, Electra225 & UE Admiral:
First, thank you Electra225 for your excellent input. We always appreciate it when forum users (familiar with the resources Team Law has provided) offer relevant input to help others. That is one of the purposes of our forum.

On that point, ‘Purpose’, we remind everyone of Team Law’s purpose, which is to help people learn to educate themselves with special focus on Law including but not limited to its language, history and the relationships we form within its construct. Considering, that understanding the written word requires a certain amount of proper usage; we have repeatedly asked our users to use proper English language capitalization, spelling, grammar and punctuation whenever possible (see Forum Rules rule 21). We ask that because it is virtually impossible to make an inquiry (or response) that others will actually understand if you fail to do so. Given our purpose, this seems to be a reasonable request.

We realize we are not perfect in this matter ourselves; but we strive for that—perfecting our usage of language; thus, we ask you all to do the same. Accordingly, we apologize for our errors and at all times welcome corrections. Please, let us know when we err so we can correct the same as quickly as possible.

Respectively, we must ask our Open Forum system users to avoid following the cellular phone ‘text messaging’ pattern of eliminating capital letters and reducing words to the least possible combination of letters that may provide something similar to a phonetic representation of words. Such usage on cellular phones makes sense, considering the those text messages are limited to 125 characters. Such usage in our forum and in other forms of writing is considered apathetic, sloppy and promotes miscommunication; which is contrary to our purpose here.

Thus, we ask you, Cricketol, and all other users, Please use post all topics in a way which is consistent with “normal writing”; that is, users should:
  • Use standard English language capitalization, spelling, grammar and punctuation whenever possible;
  • Avoid following the cellular phone ‘text messaging’ pattern of eliminating punctuation and capital letters and of reducing words to the least possible combination of letters that may provide something similar to a phonetic representation of words;
  • Not post excessive numbers of emoticons, large, small or colored text, etc.
  • Not SHOUT or use excessive punctuation (e.g. ! and ?) in topic titles or posts.
Forum Rules rule 21 notes Users consistently abusing this “normal writing” standard will be warned.

Having addressed that, we will now address the subject matter of this topical thread as follows:

Cricketol, though we appreciate your interest in learning about Land and Land Law before you embark upon ownership of either land or the property appurtenant to it, outside of such an interest, we do not understand your concern over land patents if you do not own land. We expect part of our curiosity with your inquiry comes from the lack of communication inherent with your use of cellular phone ‘text messaging’ styled posts, which are very difficult to understand. Thus, again, we ask you to use “normal writing” when responding or posting on our forum. That way we might better understand such inquiries.

When you ask about the necessity of a “Deed” to get Land and or property appurtenant to Land; though there are other ways to convey such rights, the Deed is the most common way; and, “Yes” you need something of that nature to acquire either Land or property appurtenant to Land. Respectively, that is where you will find any assignment to any respective Title (land patent) to the same. If that is not clear then you should likely go back to Electra225’s instructions and follow them.

When you refer to, “in the old way”, we expect you are referring to either inheritance or homesteading (making a lawful claim to land that is not otherwise owned by anyone else, which is, for the most part, unavailable in the United States today). Thus, the “Deed” or some other lawful instrument of assignment is necessary for any relevance to any land patent related to the Land.

UE Admiral,
We also thank you for your helpful input on this topical thread and noticed that we might be able to help you out a bit with this clarification. When the owner of a parcel of Land is the same person as the owner of the property appurtenant to that Land, the ownership is said to be “fee simple”, which is short for, “fee simple absolute title”. The word “fee” as used here is short for “fealty”; thus, these terms mean there is no feudal tenure because the landowner and the property owner are one in the same person. Another word for this is “Allodial Title”.

As you suggested, you may also have a situation where the landowner owns only the Land and the owner of the property appurtenant to that Land is an entirely different person; such ownership is called “feudal” because the landowner and the property owner have potentially competitive interests. This is certainly the case in Great Britain, where the Queen owns all of the Land and private people can own private property that sits on her land. Thus, they owe her for the privilege of maintaining their property on her Land. Such is the case in most monarchies.

Another point you scraped on was the fact that Land cannot be bought, sold or traded and you imagined that was a result of the Warranty Deed; however, though such a condition may be referenced on the Deed, the cause goes more to the nature of the Land itself and to the language of the Land Patent; but, to delve further into that matter would require Team Law beneficiary support so we will have to leave that topic there hoping this response will be of help.

We hope this information is helpful to you.
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Re: What do you need to get a Land Patent?

Postby 5rwcrc » Monday February 23rd, 2009 10:07 pm MST

I am in Southern California. We use Grant Deeds and Trust Deeds. Is this okay to start the process? Thanks

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Re: What do you need to get a Land Patent?

Postby Admin » Tuesday February 24th, 2009 10:17 am MST

:h: 5rwcrc:
Welcome to the Forum!
And, the answer to your questions is: ‘Yes, and no.’
‘Yes’, for the Grant Deeds used in California, Oregon, etc. are simply statutory Warranty Deeds. The Corp. State statute defines such Deeds using (or approximating) a particular set of words as a Warranty Deed, where the warranty is expressed in the statute and is therefore more enforceable by the Corp. State in their courts. Of course, standard Warranty Deeds and Quitclaim Deeds can also be used in those states where the convention is to use the statutory Grant Deed.

And, ‘No’, for the Trust Deeds, which are almost always based upon an underlying Warranty Deed that first transfers the Title to the Land (and property appurtenant to the land) from the Seller (Grantor) to the Grantee, then, with the Trust Deed, that Grantee grants the title to the property appurtenant to the land to a Trust that holds the interest in said property in Trust until said Grantee pays off the respective Mortgage; at which time the Trust then returns the property to said Grantee. Thus, the Trust Deed does not show your right to the Land, rather it secures the property appurtenant to the land to the Trust so formed until the conditions of the Mortgage are fulfilled. Therefore, in the case of such Trust Deeds, you must have the underlying Deed that granted the Land rights to you.

We hope this information is helpful to you.
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Re: What do you need to get a Land Patent?

Postby Zane » Wednesday February 25th, 2009 7:25 am MST

8-) I have a private contract with the persons who have warranty deed to this "real estate" I am purchasing. Along with the contract we have both agreed to for the payment and upkeep of the property, I have a Bill of sale signed , sealed and delivered by the seller. The contract states that I will not be registering the property with the county tax assessors office and will not be responsible for the taxes on said property as that is a separate contract between the seller and the tax collector, all I require is a Bill of Sale. Although I fully intend to complete payments to the seller as stated in the contract, they have already signed and delivered the Bill of Sale , which is witnessed and sealed. Allodial title is what I seek. It is my understanding that I can still aquire the Land Patent even though the contract is not yet paid in full, is this correct? I do have the Bill of Sale.

I recently spoke with someone from the Bureau of Land Management for the east Coast, which is in Virginia for me here in Pennsylvania. They informed me that there aren't any Land Patents for the original 13 States and never were. The original 13 States have no public lands available for land patent. Is this the case? If so, how would one secure their right to the land itself?
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children." (Hosea 4:6)

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Re: What do you need to get a Land Patent?

Postby SimplyThinkDreams » Sunday March 1st, 2009 2:11 pm MST

Zane,
From what I found in my research, the Bureau of Land Management in Virginia has nothing to do with acquiring a land patent in Pennsylvania. I believe the office you are looking to contact is the Land Office of the Commonwealth. This is the agency that keeps the informational record of land patents for Pennsylvania. Since I cannot post an off-site link that is not approved by the Admin, I suggest you do a Google search of "land patents and Pennsylvania." That is how I found the Land Office of the Commonwealth listed on the Pennsylvania State Archives website. What part of Pennsylvania are you from? I am in Bucks County and currently in the process of obtaining a land patent for my parents' property. I hope this helps you out. Personally, I have not called to obtain a copy of the patent but will be doing so shortly.

As for your question regarding the Bill of Sale, I am not an expert on the matter. However, if you read the forum post Land 101 you should understand that land cannot be sold but only granted. Only property and appurtenances to the land can be sold. Therefore, you should read the Bill of Sale under the Standard for Review keeping the above mentioned in mind. Also, does the Bill of Sale include a legal description of the land? If it does not then you cannot get a land patent using the Bill of Sale as your starting document. You would have to look at the latest Warranty Deed for the description. Since I do not have access to your Bill of Sale, nor can I read it, you will have to determine for yourself under the Standard of Review what is constituted in said contract.

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Re: What do you need to get a Land Patent?

Postby Zane » Monday March 2nd, 2009 7:55 am MST

Thanks for the info, I will look into that. The contract we agreed to has the legal description of the land in it, the Bill of Sale is attached to them. I do need the land patent to secure everything, I'm sure, to avoid confusion over ownership. Fuedal tenure is not adequate for me. Not sure why the fellow in Virginia told me there is no land patent office in Pennsylvania and that the Virginia office handles Pennsylvania patents. He also informed me that people think land patents relieve them of mortgage and tax liabilities, which I know it doesn't if one has contracts for these things, which I don't. The Bill of Sale is in dollars/ounces silver for the property on the land. I believe that when there is 20.00 dollars of silver or more involved in the transaction, the Common Law applies. Bucks County is where the seller is, just above Philidelphia in Doylestown. We are in Crawford County. A Bill of Sale is proof of ownership of the property on this land. In the contract, I stated I would not be accepting the tax liability that they have aquired through THEIR registration of the property with that entity, it is their responsibility under that contract, not mine. All I wanted was Bill of Sale, which includes the address on the legal description, State spelled out, no zip code and the judicial district, which is the 11th.
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children." (Hosea 4:6)

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Re: What do you need to get a Land Patent?

Postby Admin » Monday March 2nd, 2009 12:46 pm MST

:h: Zane:
We held off from responding right away because we always appreciate it when other respond first and then we can moderate the forum to keep it on the right track with accurate information. Therefore, we especially appreciate SimplyThinkDreams on-point response. Accordingly, here are a few pointers:
  1. You need to be careful about privately contracted Real Estate deals; we agree, they are the best way to go; however, you must know what you are doing with such contracts and be very careful what is being contracted for. Special care must be used to insure that both the Land rights and the appurtenant property rights are properly secured and by whom—many people do not realize the Land and the property appurtenant to it are separate things. That level of educational assistance from Team Law can only be provided to our beneficiaries (after this response was posted Zane became a Team Law Beneficiary); so, we will leave that matter with that simple cautionary warning and this note, allodial title is not the safest way to hold Title and secure either the Land or the property appurtenant to it.
  2. The nature of the private sales contract (with its respective Bill of Sale) deals only with that which can be bought, sold or traded. Accordingly, considering that the land patent prevents the Land from ever being bought, sold or traded, it sounds like you may have only acquired the property appurtenant to the Land and not the Land itself. If that is the case:
    1. You do not own the Land itself and you do not have any right to the land patents that so secure the Land to its landowners. Hopefully, that is not the case.
    2. In most cases, a Bill of Sale alone does not convey title to the Land and only relates to the property appurtenant to the Land—the tangible real property.
    3. If the respective Landowner continues to pay the property taxes they agreed to they may be in position to remove your property interest through other legal means.
    4. If you do not own the Land as well, there will be nothing you can do about such an action.
  3. Generally “Allodial Title” can only be acquired through a Deed or other similar instrument having the same effect.
      (The following Title related terms are all synonymous:
      “Allodial”, “Fee Simple”, “Fee Simple Absolute”, “Simple Fealty” and “Absolute Simple Fealty”;
      and they mean the Title to both the Land and the property appurtenant to the Land is held by the same Title holder.)
  4. All of the Land in Pennsylvania comes under the same William Penn Grant made Patent by the King of England.
  5. The land patents available at the Commonwealth’s Land office are State issued Land Patent, all of which are sub to the William Penn Patent from Great Britain.
  6. It is impossible to answer your question regarding whether you have land patent secured rights without more information and the nature of this whole level of inquiry is regarding your private interests in your property, which is a matter that should have been handled via private message to Admin instead of on the Open Forum. We addressed the points we shared above because they are all points of general interest to many — most of which were actually handled in the information provided in the Land 101 article. SimplyThinkDreams correctly pointed that out in their response; however, that response did not hit the general issue that you cannot secure land patent secured Land rights through a Bill of Sale alone—Land cannot be sold. Again the Land 101 article makes that clear.
  7. SimplyThinkDreams incorrectly implied that you can use the Landowner’s Warranty Deed to secure your rights to the Land patent. Obviously, that cannot be correct where you have no0 rights to that document. If you do not have the Land rights the Sellers Bill of Sale only relates to that portion of the seller’s rights that can be sold.
  8. The “fellow” from BLM in Virginia was correct. There is no United States BLM office in any State connected to the Mississippi River or East of that River except the Virginia based Corp. U.S. BLM offices. They were obviously not relating information regarding the several states or their offices. Also, that East Coast based BLM office handles all of the land patent issued by the United States Government for all of the states within their venue (which includes Virginia); but the only patents that would include in the original 13 states would be patents issued from the conveyance of Land that had been owned by the United States of America in accord with the provisions of the Constitution for the United States of America and thereafter passed into the private sector.
  9. Law, including but not limited to, “Common Law” applies to the sales transaction regardless of the price of the property in question. The 20 dollar matter is only a constitutional matter reserving the right to a trial by jury in a contest over the contract.
Again, as we noted above, though the subjects we responded to in your posts to this topical thread are matters that often come up in conversations regarding Real Estate transactions, so we responded here rather than moving your post to Admin’s private messages for a response, following any of what we have now here responded to would require Team Law beneficiary support so we are limited from responding further to anyone that does not have the benefit of Team Law beneficiary support.

We hope this information is helpful to you.
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Re: What do you need to get a Land Patent?

Postby Sbarker2008 » Sunday July 12th, 2009 12:13 pm MDT

I live in northern Cali and recently my husband brought forward the land patents on both our homes with no problem. We went to BLM for the info and they were very helpful. My parents however live in Maine and are having a hard time finding the info they need to start the process....something to do with the 13 colonies ? Any ideas? Thanks for any help you can give. :help:

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Re: What do you need to get a Land Patent?

Postby Admin » Tuesday July 21st, 2009 4:34 pm MDT

:h: Sbarker2008:
Though we appreciate the term of Art, “brought forward”, it is important to remember that the land patent does not move. It is “patent”, which means it is fixed in time and space. Its time is “forever” and its space is the Land description on its face. Its terms are what they are and they cannot change, neither can they be changed. It is immutable. Therefore, the term of Art, “brought forward” cannot properly apply.

Regarding your parents in Maine, perhaps they should call our office and see if they cannot get the help they seek here. The matter is a personal one so the Open Forum system is not the place for its discussion but they can certainly call and we are sure we will be able to help them learn the proper process for securing landownership. The information necessary for such a call is found on our Contacting Team Law page.

We hope this information is helpful to you.
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Re: What do you need to get a Land Patent?

Postby Jscottv » Friday March 19th, 2010 5:07 am MDT

I have a question that is a little different about which I am not clear. Recently, I purchased an actual land patent in the form of a mining claim in Colorado. This is the actual, original patent document.. when I look at the BLM records, the records of the patent exists, but the BLM state they have "NO COPY", (of course not, I have it).

I have the receipt showing that the actual patent was sold to me. Is my sales receipt, along with my actual patent document in hand, enough to file claim to the patent and assume ownership?

Thank you for your help...

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Re: What do you need to get a Land Patent?

Postby Admin » Friday March 19th, 2010 10:00 am MDT

:h: Jscottv:
We do not understand your inquiry for several reasons:
  1. You wrote: “I purchased an actual land patent.”
    • However, a land patent is a document. Accordingly, if you purchased such a document, all you would have is the document; which would not provide you with any land rights at all.
    • That document (land patent=Title to the Land) would provide the name of the landowner of the land described on it.
    • The succession of title from that landowner to the present would be found in the deeds authoritatively created from the time when that patent was issued until the present.
    • If you do not possess an assignment with such documents that proves your title to the land, you have no land rights and your purchase of the land patent was merely the purchase of a historical document.
  2. You alleged that the reason the BLM does not have a record of the patent you have is you have the original document.
    • However, BLM rarely has possession of the original documents. The original land patents were made and given to the party that acquired the same from the government when the patent (Title) was issued. Instead, the BLM has official recorded copies of the original land patent records. Thus, virtually all of their records are just the official record copies of the original instruments; which would have no effect on the original document that remain in the land patent secured landowners’ possession.
    • Thus, when you look at their records and they say they have “NO COPY”; that does not necessarily mean that they have no record; it simply means that office has no copy of that record available.
  3. You wrote: “I have the receipt showing that the actual patent was sold to me.” Of course, as we already noted, having such a receipt would only prove you purchased the document; but, what is the point? If that is in fact what your receipt shows, it will also remain evidence of your purchase of a historical document, not a land right.
  4. Thus, we do not understand your question.
How could the ownership of a historical document provide any right to claim ownership of the thing related to on that document. That would be like saying party "A" paid $700,000.00 to purchase the famous painting known as the “Mona Lisa” from the Louvre Museum in Paris and received a sales receipt that showed their purchase. Then, as a novelty, party "A" sells “The receipt from the Louvre” to a party "B"; providing party "B" with a receipt that shows the purchase of “The receipt from the Louvre”.

The inquiry you presented us, as it would relate to that transaction for the Mona Lisa, is: ‘I have the receipt showing that “The receipt from the Louvre” was sold to me. Is my sales receipt, along with my actual “The receipt from the Louvre” in hand, enough to file claim to the Mona Lisa and assume ownership?

We leave you to answer that question because it seems all too obvious. Continuing with that metaphor, ownership of the historical document even with a receipt that indicates you came by your ownership of that document lawfully provides no evidence of ownership of the Mona Lisa other than the evidence that it was once sold to someone else.

The bottom line: land ownership documents define on their face the party to whom landownership belongs. Thus, if your name in not on the Title as the landowner, or on the subsequent chain of title landownership documents (usually deeds), then you are not the landowner and you do not have landownership rights; regardless what documents you own or how you came into their possession.

We hope this information is helpful to you.
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Re: What do you need to get a Land Patent?

Postby Jscottv » Friday March 19th, 2010 12:13 pm MDT


All red text in this post was inserted by Admin to instantly clairfy incorrect presuppositions as they were discovered.
Thank your for you answer... please hopefully you will help me clear a couple of points in my mind that you offer as argument against ownership so I will know what I must do next.

In effect, what you are saying to me is:
  1. That to be designated as the current "assigned" on a land patent, simply receiving the patent and a bill of sale is not sufficient.
    Not when the bill of sale is for the sale of “the document” and not for the property described on the document. Thus, if we buy a bag of oranges and receive a receipt regarding that purchase, then we sell the receipt to an interested party. Because said interested party purchased only the receipt, not the oranges, they have no interest in said oranges. Accordingly, if as you provided in your first response, you purchased the original document known as “land patent”, your receipt provides evidence that you have title to that document. However, your title to that document would provide you with no interest whatsoever in anything described in that document. Accordingly, as you stated:
    That a receipt of sale only transfers a document, and NOT the value of what the document represents. That if the patent has been essentially "abandoned" with no "heir apparent", that for all purposes the land patent is lost to posterity. Since it is no longer in the possession of the issuer and the receiver is no longer alive, the patent is essentially useless and null and void?
    Though we do not agree with that allegation, the level of support required to respond to that issue requires Team Law beneficiary support; accordingly, we can only provide that level of support to Team Law beneficiaries.
  2. That a simple purchase by "representative exchange of value" ie: patent, for money, and the contract being a simple "bill of sale" will not convey the "value represented"?
    We made no statement regarding that allegation in our original response. In fact, our point was you get the thing for which you paid. Again when the thing for which you paid is a piece of paper, that is what you get. The terms of the purchase dictate that.
    It will on a car, it will using a bond, it will using a deed. BUT it will NOT using a patent?
    If you buy the car, bond or property appurtenant to land, then the respective Bill of Sale or Deed will show that is what you purchased. It will not show that you purchased a piece of paper that proved some other party was granted Title to that thing, which is what your original scenario provided; which is why we stated that we could not possibly understand the meaning our your original inquiry.
  3. That to transfer the responsibility of a patent requires
    an assignment to that end from someone that possesses the authority granted to them by that land patent. No other thing can provide the authority of that land patent.
    more than having an actual bill of sale, the patent in possession, an advertising of six weeks for the intent of accepting responsibility and the waiting period for objection before filing a claim of responsibility and assignment "ownership"?
    We struck out that text because it is either further evidence of the incomprehensibility of your first inquiry or your evidence of your failure to understand our response; thus, regardless of the cause the text is moot to the nature of this topical thread—thus it was stricken.
  4. That a formally drafted and sealed ORIGINAL land patent, can NOT be used as "codicil by possession".
    Though the land patent is the Title to the land, that “Title” provides evidence that the party named on it has Title to the land described within the four corners of that land patent. Its (the Title instrument’s) possession by some other person provides no title to them at all unless they also have a rightfully executed Deed (or other properly and lawfully acquired instrument) that proves the lawful chain of assignment by the party named on that land patent, which Deed would prove the holders right to the Land and property appurtenant to the land so described on that land patent. The possessed instrument could have been stolen or otherwise acquired outside of such a required chain of assignment, which would not convey the Title to the Land so described.
Hopefully you can see why I am confused. Is a deed and a patent, not in essence a "descriptive declaration of ownership"
Only to the party named on the instrument.
that can be transferred or converyed? There must be some point here that I am simply not grasping? Other than as Heir, how WOULD you transfer responsibility patented land, except by contract, payment, receipt of documental evidence of what is sold (patent) and acceptance?
We hope the combination of our original response and the inserted red text here will resolve your confusion and help you understand the error in your original post in this topical thread. If it does not, you will have to call our Trustee to resolve this matter. :t^:
Thanks so much.. this IS very interesting! I may be a slow learner, but once understood, I'm a bulldog! :D

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Re: What do you need to get a Land Patent?

Postby Dan Mcdonough » Saturday March 20th, 2010 11:52 am MDT

Hello Jscottv,
First of all you should look at the page on Advice. Whatever you learn from this experience you will have to back it up with facts and law for yourself. I will, to a certain extent, help point you in the right direction to places you can study for yourself. If you were to study commercial law on the subject of property you will find that property in its legal sense is the right which one has in anything to the exclusion of everyone else.

Also you will find there is a big difference between land (the intangible domain), real property (, immovable fixed property appurtenant to the land) and personal property (unattached, movable, private property). While a "Bill Of Sale" is sufficient to transfer ownership rights in personal property (Car, Bond, etc...) the same cannot be said for land. There are many several different ways to transfer acquire and or assign land ownership, however all of them require what is known as "the granting clause" among other things. I have not seen a bill of sale that contains a granting clause, which is one reason (out of many) why it would be insufficient.

Land itself cannot be bought, or sold, or traded; however, I will leave that for you to discover on your own.
Look at the patent you posses for an example, and keep in mind the granting clause to which I have referred.

I found a book, "Commercial Law" by J.A. Lyons, from 1901 originally copyrighted in 1894. It has revealed much to me that was once common knowledge among the people of this nation. It would serve you well to start your research with such a source. To find out if the land referred to in your patent is truly abandoned you would have to check the records.
Jscottv wrote:Other than as Heir, how WOULD you transfer ... patented land?
With a deed (not a bill of sale).

Maxim's of law to keep in mind…
  1. Ignorance of the law excuses no one.
  2. No injury is done by things long acquiesced in.
  3. An action is not given to one who is not injured.
  4. It is a fraud to conceal a fraud.
I hope I have helped you.
Tell everyone about Team Law!
Dan McDonough

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Re: What do you need to get a Land Patent?

Postby Rimbo » Friday September 30th, 2011 12:23 pm MDT

Does it make a difference which kind of warranty deed ( special, general or limited) is used to obtain a land patent?

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Re: What do you need to get a Land Patent?

Postby Admin » Monday October 3rd, 2011 1:41 pm MDT

:h: Rimbo:
The name of the document through which you acquire land is not so important as is the content of the instrument. Thus, the rights to Land are defined in the Chain of Title from the Patent to the present. The Land Patent is the Title to the land and the documents in the Chain of Title from the patent to the present define what rights have been passed to you. Thus, if the rights that were granted on the Land Patent itself were passed to you (through the Chain of Title), then the Title (Land Patent) is yours and you have the Land Patent secured rights. To delve into this matter further requires Team Law Beneficiary Support.

We hope this information is helpful to you.
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Re: What do you need to get a Land Patent?

Postby Tplane37 » Saturday November 17th, 2012 7:01 pm MST

On, 19th March, 2010, Jscotty wrote:Recently, I purchased an actual land patent in the form of a mining claim in [C]olorado. This is the actual, original patent document.
Text in brackets are my edits; correcting the capitalization of “Colorado.” [I have the Original Document]

While Jscotty’s initial statement indicates that he/she acquired Rights via Land Grant made Patent, restricted solely to a “mining claim in Colorado,” this is a topic that varies slightly from the general topic of Land Grants made Patent that are typically discussed on this forum. I am not certain that a Mining Claim, restricted to minerals appurtenant to the land, would constitute a “Land Patent” to the extent that the phrase is typically applied. The reason for my statement is this:

Lands in Colorado, similar to several other States in the Western United States, were often sold with explicit “mineral reservations” by the United States from the original patentee in patenting the initial Land Grant to the private person. Language similar to:

From an actual Land Grant (made Patent) for Land and the property appurtenant to the Land, in Colorado; the President wrote:…Excepting and reserving, also, to the United States all the oil, gas, potash, and sodium in the lands so patented, and to it, or persons authorized by it, the right to prospect for, mine, and remove such deposits from the same upon compliance with the conditions and subject to the provisions and limitations of the Act of July 17, 1914 (38 Stat. 509) as amended by the Act of March 4, 1933 (47 Stat. 1570).

This entry is made under Section 29 of the Act of February 25, 1920 (41 Stat. 437), and the Act of March 4, 1933 (47 Stat. 1570), and the patent is issued subject to the rights of prior permittees or lessees to use so much of the surface of said lands as is required for mining operation, without compensation to the patentee for damages resulting from proper mining operations.

Now, many of the patents that specifically reserve specified minerals such as gold or coal do not have as much detail as the example above, but the general point is that, in some instances, some Land was granted with explicit mineral and mining Rights reserved by the United States. It is the Land Grants subject to these explicit reservations that “make way” for a “Mining Claim” that Jscottv claims to have the original document for. Furthermore, the BLM is currently “selling” grants to Mining Claims regarding the aforementioned reservations, therefore it is entirely possible that Jscottv does in fact have the original document from the BLM, with his name on the face of the document, and a receipt demonstrating that he paid “fair market value” for the Mining Claim Patent (according to the BLM in a phone conversation, there is still limited Land available to be granted, as well as mining claims. Instead of the previous $1.25-$2.50 per acre, plus 5% tax, the Corp. U.S. is seeking “fair market value” for the remaining unappropriated Lands in the U.S.; "fair market value" well goes beyond the original intent of our original jurisdiction Congress of essentially paying processing and survey feea and a tax of 1/20th of the total cost to cover the costs involved in disposal of the lands and to provide funding for roads to/from navigable waters).

If my above interpretation is correct, and Jscottv does in fact have a “Mining Claim” grant recently issued by the BLM that bears his/her name on the document (possible, yet not probable), then his/her Rights would only be to the naturally occurring property appurtenant to the Land that is explicitly described in said “Mining Claim” within the domain thereto described in said grant. He/She would not have acquired any rights to any “made-made” property appurtenant to the land, and would not have acquired absolute domain. In effect, he/she would have obtained a Feudal Title that goes beyond what has been previously described on this site (Land vs. Real Estate Title would now involve Land vs. Real Estate vs. Valuable Minerals Title). Therefore, provided he/she adheres to any of the applicable Law enumerated in said Mining Claim and to the applicable Law enumerated in the original Land Grant for the same domain(s), the only further action I can think of that might be necessary would be to have the Mining Claim (and his/her “Acceptance” of said Grant?) recorded in his/her miscellaneous case number on Public Record and have Certified Copies available for any Lawful mining he/she may wish to embark on in relation to his/her Rights.

Personally, I would not have a desire to a Title in such a feudal state of affairs. I would personal secure the Mining Claim with Team Law Beneficiary support, and then immediately move forward with contacting the current occupant of the domain described, tell them about Team Law so that they can secure their Rights to their domain with Team Law Beneficiary Support, and sell them the “Mining Claim” associated with their specific domain, so that they may Lawfully “Quiet Title” and actually have a chance at possessing a Fee Simple Title to their respective Lands. This would serve many purposes, it could allow Jscottv to acquire funds/silver to move on to a better “secured” piece of Land (e.g. no apparent Feudal Title), it would spread the word about Team Law to a large portion of a community, which in turn would potentially awaken a fair number of People to the concept of learning to learn the Law so that they can learn to apply the Law, thus bringing the Republic a little bit closer to removing the Corp. U.S./State (applying “The Slight Edge” philosophy).

On, 19th March, 2010, Jscotty wrote:I have the receipt showing that the actual patent was sold to me. Is my sales receipt, along with my actual patent document in hand, enough to file claim to the patent and assume ownership?
(Emphasis in bold/italics added.)

This quote again implies that the “Mining Claim” is actually already in his/her name. My major concern at this point would be the validity of a Grant issued on the authority of an "Act" of the Corporate U.S. congress passed after March 1914 due to the Corporate vs. Original Jurisdiction situation concerning the vacated seats of government.

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Re: What do you need to get a Land Patent?

Postby Admin » Sunday November 18th, 2012 8:58 am MST

:h: Tplane37:
First of all, the March 19th inquiry, from Jscotty, which you quoted as the basis of your inquiry was incomprehensible, as noted in both Admin’s response and in the follow-up to that point of inquiry. Thus, your inquiry based upon that incomprehensible post is no less understandable by nature of the original inquiry.

In that March 19th inquiry, Jscotty referenced the purchase of a historical document only; the ownership of which has nothing to do with the rights that may have been described in that historical document. Again, it I acquire a grant of land and that grant is secured with a Land Grant made Patent (a Land Patent), that instrument is a historical document that proves my title to that Land so granted to me.

However, if I (or my descendants, etc.) sell that historical document (the Land Patent) to a third party, that historical document does not change its effect. It still only proves my Title to the Land so secured by that instrument. In other words, the Land Patent itself is not like a ‘bearer note’ the value of which is automatically transferred to its holder. Rather, the Land Patent does only what it says it does, on its face. Thus, to transfer title to Land so secured by Land Patent, one must create a Color of Title instrument (such as a Warranty Deed) to “color” (change) the Title defined in said Land Patent.

Respectively, the purchasing the historical document has no effect on the rights that may be secured within the historical document. Wherefore, we cannot agree with your presupposition that “Jscotty’s initial statement indicates that he/she acquired Rights via Land Grant made Patent” for no such claim was made by Jscotty. Further, right after quoting from Jscotty you (within brackets) noted that you “have the Original Document”; wherefore, we again state that possession of that instrument provides you no more rights than it did Jscotty. That is to say, if you do not have inherent or assigned rights, proven by the Chain of Title [an unbroken chain of documents that color the chain of title from the named (within the patent) patent holder to yourself], then possession of the Land Patent in question is of no value to you beyond any perceived value that may be had in the historical document itself—but, that perceived value of that historical document will, in and of itself, provide you no value in the land or in the property appurtenant to the land.

We cannot emphasize enough the importance of following close adherence to the Standard for Review when reviewing such matters. Doing so will help anyone understand the mechanics of land grants made patent, and their effect, such as the one at the base of your inquiry.

However, from that point you then referenced your thoughts regarding Mining Claims and their standing as land patents. Again, all such instruments speak for themselves; and, yes, mining claims made patent are quite similar, in their effect, with land patents and are often themselves considered as land patents—though mining claims are often drafted with more specificity.

You then referred to some such specified details from such a claim noting specific reservations; however, a study of issued land patents will quickly demonstrate such reservations made in many land patents as well; thus the conclusions you made were not warranted.

Land patent claims filed with the government cost significantly less that filing a mining claim. However, the effect of a mining claim is open as to discovery of that which is being mined. Thus, if a party with a mining claim strikes a discovery of a vein of gold [and files a claim on that discovery] and that discovery runs off of the particular parcel of land so secured by the mining claim, the recorded claim of that gold vein runs with the vein; wherever it may go.

In many cases where land patents (containing no reservations) were granted the people owning the land subsequently sold off all rights to things like oil, coal, gold, etc. and respectively a party that acquired such a land patent or mining patent (with such reservations) do not interfere with others that may previously have secured such rights—thus, the reservations.

Thus, mining claims made patent are considered the same as land patents; however, mining claims have more power and are thus more often granted with restrictions.

Except for the last two paragraphs, the balance of your inquiry dealt with a hypothetical situations; and accordingly, in accord with our Open Forum’s Rule 10; we cannot respond to such hypothetical issues unless you have Team Law beneficiary support and the a situation is an elemental part of your desire to learn how to learn the law. Wherefore, this general Open Forum is not the place for such a topic.

Regarding those last two paragraphs, again we disagree; for the same reasons we showed above; nothing in Jscotty’s post gave any indication to Jscotty having purchased anything other than a historical document. Add to that the fact that, “Land, secured by land patent, can never be bargained, sold or conveyed away from any land patent secured landowner”; and, the interpretation you provided is impossible. Therefore, again, possessing such a historical document does not in itself convey any rights to the subject that is at the basis of said historical document.

We hope this information is helpful to you.
Tell everybody about Team Law! :t^:
Team Law,

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and of our spouses, our children, and our peace.
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