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Land Patents New York

The mystery of Land Patents unveiled.

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Land Patents New York

Postby Isothermal » Tuesday May 11th, 2010 1:33 pm MDT

Prior to 1967, the New York constitution had a provision for allodial title to land. It was eliminated, with the argument that it was obvious that land can have allodial title, so that provision of the constitution was superfluous.

I am wondering if anyone has first hand knowledge of a flesh and blood man gaining allodial title or land patent in New York, since 1967.

From my research, schools (universities) and some churches may have allodial title of their property, although I have not seen first hand the evidence of that.

The specific area of New York which I have researched is a western part of the state, where the land was fist claimed by Massachusetts, given to the US to help pay the revolutionary war debt, and then subsequently sold commercially. Tracing the land back to the first land grant has proven to be straight forward.

Understanding the patent process in New York has been more elusive.

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Re: Land Patents New York

Postby Admin » Tuesday May 11th, 2010 5:32 pm MDT

:h: Isothermal:
We have to agree with the legislators that determined that it is obvious that an allodial title can be had and setting a law to that regard is superfluous and unnecessary.

Allodial title merely means that the owner of the domain (Land; see Land 101) and the owner of the property appurtenant to the domain is one and the same person.

The opposite of an “allodial title” is a “feudal title”; which means that the owner of the domain is a different person than the owner of the property appurtenant to the domain.

In the paragraphs above we chose to use the word “domain” in place of the usual word so used, “land”; because, when we use the word “land” people so often misunderstand the term thinking that we are referring to the statutory term, “vacant land”. We are not.
In, Land Law 9 (2nd ed. 1988) Reprinted in Black’s Law Dictionary, Seventh Edition, Peter Butt wrote: ‘Land’ is simply an area of three dimensional space, its position being defined by natural or imaginary points located by reference to the earth’s surface. ‘Land’ is not the fixed contents of that space… . Land is immoveable, as distinct from chattels, which are moveable; it is also, in its legal significance, indestructible. The contents of the space may be physically severed, destroyed or consumed, but the space itself, and so the ‘land’, remains immutable.

Thus, it should be obvious that all land held in a “fee simple” Title is allodial. Accordingly, in accord with the laws of New York the Union State, virtually all of the titles held in the State are held by an allodial title.

Accordingly, we expect that, with a knowledge of law and knowing what you are looking at, the records of land ownership in the State will prove that virtually all of the land in New York is held by its various owners in allodial title.

New York’s strip map even shows the names and boundaries of most of the original land patents as they were then issued and became the basis of most of the other boundaries in the State.

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Re: Land Patents New York

Postby Isothermal » Wednesday May 12th, 2010 10:05 am MDT

Thanks for your reply. I had already read the Land 101 posting.

However, the question remains: Has anyone successfully secured a land patent / allodial title in New York, since 1967?

Said differently, I have without any real problem documented and collected certified copies of deeds and relevant documents. Understanding the process, specific to New York, is the issue.

So I'm wondering if there is even one post-1967, non-university and non-church, example out there?

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Re: Land Patents New York

Postby Admin » Wednesday May 12th, 2010 10:50 am MDT

:h: Isothermal:
We already correctly answered that inquiry.
You obviously missed our direct response; so, we will restate that response as follows:

Virtually every single real estate transaction in New York today secures the ownership with an original Allodial Title.
In other words: Virtually every single real estate transaction in New York today secures the ownership of both the Land and the property appurtenant to the land to the Buyer/Grantee with a Land Patent.

It is done the same today as it has been done since before the formation of the State. Virtually the only exception to that fact takes place whenever there is an unresolved underlying forced sale (foreclosure sale or tax sale) of the property appurtenant to the land. Such forced sales separate the title to the property appurtenant to the land from the Title to the land itself, which results in a Feudal Title instead of an Allodial Title.

If that was not clear enough, try this:
Isothermal wrote:Has anyone successfully secured a land patent / allodial title in New York, since 1967?
The answer to your question is: “Yes.”
Of course, that answer then has the follow-up question: “Who?”
That is the answer we already provided you in our first response by showing:
    Both today and throughout the history of the State, virtually every landowner in New York (for that matter, throughout the United States of America) has successfully secured ownership of their land and the property appurtenant to it by an allodial title, which Title is the Land Patent under which the land was originally granted to the parties named on it. The documents that prove that fact are the landowner’s Deed with the “chain of title” from that Deed to the original Land Patent for that land.
Your next question was:
Isothermal wrote:I'm wondering if there is even one post-1967, non-university and non-church, example out there?
And, that question was also answered by our previous response. That answer is also: “Yes”; for the exact same reasons.

Accordingly, if you do not now understand our answer to your inquiry, then you will have to be a Team Law beneficiary for us to help you learn how to learn the law so that you can understand it and apply it.

Regardless of that your understanding (or lack of the same) will not change the fact that virtually all land titles in the United States of America are allodial.

The term in law that you will regularly see that confirms that fact is, “fee simple title”; which is the exact same thing as, “allodial title”.

To delve into this matter further will require access to the Beneficiary Forum.

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Re: Land Patents New York

Postby Isothermal » Monday May 17th, 2010 2:47 pm MDT

My understanding is that fee simple or fee simple absolute falls short of allodial title, in that fee simple provides for taxation, police power, escheat and eminent domain, as well as applying encumbrances from a deed.

Simply stated, it appears that allodial title is converted to fee simple when the land is municipally incorporated, resulting in restrictions and regulation.

Furthermore, there does not seem to be the same process available to one in New York, which is implemented in other states, supporting the establishment of land patents or letters of patent.

My question remains: Has anyone, since 1967, obtained allodial title to land in New York state, and if known, what was to process to do so?

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Re: Land Patents New York

Postby Admin » Tuesday May 18th, 2010 6:00 pm MDT

:h: Isothermal:
Ok, so the first problem we have here is a difference of opinion regarding the meaning of words and phrases. But, that aside if we were to use your definitions of the words our answers to your questions remain the same with a slight bit of qualification.

First of all, most people never acquire title to their land or to the property appurtenant to it. The fact is, they typically have no interest in it at all. If you look at the documents they use to acquire real estate, those documents will prove that the party acquiring the real estate is a taxpayer identified by its social security number. A review of the seven points of “Prerequisite Knowledge” listed in Myth 22 will show such taxpayers are merely Corp. U.S. agency trusts holding all that the trust acquires for its beneficiary—Corp. U.S.

Thus, considering the fact that your question is focused on people acquiring Allodial title; that body of people that have secured Title to their land is a significantly smaller group than anyone might want to imagine. Still, we are aware of some people that have (even recently). Of course, our relating that brings on the next question; which we will not answer, that being: “Who?”

One of Team Law’s elemental policies is respecting privacy, so we will never reveal that kind of information. In fact, we believe doing so would provide no benefit to anyone.

The bottom line: Team Law helps people learn how to learn the law; including but not limited to, the proper way of acquiring land and of property appurtenant to it. But that is a subject we have to reserve to our Team Law beneficiary support services.

We can say this though, to secure the Title to the land and to the property appurtenant to the land (using your definition of Allodial title) free and clear of all encumbrances you simply have to make sure that all contracts and agreements are fulfilled and that in the process you do not encumber the property with any new obligations.

However, most people have no idea how to do that; so, if they do not learn the law and apply it they will not likely figure it out.

We know of several people in New York that have followed that process and have respectively secured perfect title both to the Land and to the property appurtenant to the land.

There are a couple of problems with your original question:
  1. Though the answer to your question is, “Yes” (even using your definition of “allodial”), we do not expect that answer will be sufficient for you. Having received that answer we expect you will now want to either know who has done it (which question we are not privileged to answer) or you will want to know how that is to be done; which would require beneficiary support, which is not possible except with beneficiary support; and then, only so long as the path does not take us to private matters (which would need to be handled personally, via beneficiary telephone services).
  2. Your original question presupposes that Allodial title is preferable over all other forms of title; which it is not. To delve into that matter would also require Team Law beneficiary support; however, we will give you a hint towards that end. Still, we could only show a Team Law beneficiary what form of title is the most secure form of title; which brings us to the same dilemma—you would have to be a Team Law beneficiary to receive the level of support necessary to take this matter any further.
Thus, we hope you will either take up the matter as a Team Law beneficiary or be satisfied knowing that we told you that there are people in New York, the State, that have (even since 1967) secured allodial titles, even by your definition. And, all of the land in New York (the State) is secured by land patents.

We hope this information is helpful to you.
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Re: Land Patents New York

Postby OldModelT » Thursday September 6th, 2012 12:23 am MDT

First of all, this is my first post and I'm trying my hand at this.

Second of all, I appreciate being able to verbalize my experiences in this matter, as I'm also in Schuyler County, New York.

Accordingly, I'm a little baffled by the terms "title" and "deed."
Admin wrote:Virtually every single real estate transaction in New York today secures the ownership with an original Allodial Title.
In other words: Virtually every single real estate transaction in New York today secures the ownership of both the Land and to the property appurtenant the land to the Buyer/Grantee with a Land Patent.


My late wife and I bought our property in 1978 where we were given "FORM 583½ N.Y. DEED—WARRANTY with Lien Covenant." In the description regarding the parties, we were indentified as "tenants by the entirety." Further this deed declares that it is "in Compliance with Sec. 13 of the Lien Law" and that the seller "will forever Warrent the title to said premises."

Therefore I fail to see where this is an Allodial Title at all. I am a "tenant" on my own supposed land which is further subject to "Sec. 13 of the Lien Law." If that was not enough, the title to the "premises" is warrented to an unknown party and nothing is said about the title to the land itself. It's also my understanding that "premises" is defined as "federal property" which places it under federal jurisdiction.

In all my discussions with other people here in New York, it is the same story with their deeds. So am I missing something here?

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Re: Land Patents New York

Postby Admin » Wednesday October 10th, 2012 5:34 pm MDT

:h: OldModelT
We expect you are misunderstanding several of the terms related to the transactions involved in the acquisition of the land and property in question.

However, to make our statement, which you quoted, more clear we edited it a bit by adding “original” to the first sentence and, in the second sentence, by both removing an extra “to” (a simple typo—it now reads “and the”) and adding, “with a Land Patent”. Perhaps that change alone will allow you to understand our original comment better.

“Premises” is not defined as “federal property”; see: The Cardinal Rule of Definitions.

By definition in Law a “Tenant” is: “One who holds or possesses lands, tenements, or sometimes personal property by any kind of title.” Thus, it is not necessarily a party that leases or rents property from some other landowner. “Tenants by the entirety” simply means that with regard at least to the real estate ownership you are held in a general partnership where neither party can sell the property without the consent of the other partner(s).

None of those terms have anything to do with the type of Title that secures the land and or the property appurtenant to the land.
“Fee Simple Title” means that the owner of the land and the owner of the property appurtenant to the land are one in the same person.
“Allodial Title” is the same thing as Fee Simple Title except that, with an “Allodial Title” the title holder is also beholding to no one with any regard to that Title.
“Feudal Title” means the owner of the land and the owner of the property appurtenant to it are different parties.

Respectively, when Land Patents are issued they are always issued as an “Allodial Title”.

However, such Deeds as the one you described are also often accompanied with a Trust Deed, where the owner of the real estate, defined on the Warranty Deed, grants the property appurtenant to the land to the Public Trustee (or someone similar) and they remain the owners of the property appurtenant to the land until the respective lien is paid off. Thus, is such a situation, though the Tenant (land and property owner) grants the title of the property appurtenant to the land to the Public Trustee, that Tenant remains in tenancy and thus a Tenant on the land even though the Public Trustee is now the property–owner.

The Title to the land is always the Land Patent; therefore, the Title secures an allodial title; however, if the property owners subsequent to that Title secure a loan or tax debt against the property appurtenant to the land, that act will remove the allodial nature of your right to that Title until you satisfy the terms of that debt.

Of course, it is virtually impossible to learn the law by studying third party opinions on the internet. Respectively, the best way to learn how to learn the law is as a Team Law beneficiary; because, that is exactly what we do; we help people learn how to learn the law from their own firsthand experience studying the law itself from its source.

We hope this information is helpful to you.
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Re: Land Patents New York

Postby Orm » Wednesday November 26th, 2014 7:09 pm MST

The more i research and study, the more i realize how little i know, and at the same time, i feel the invention of infinite terminologies is for the purpose of imprisoning the People of Earth thru a labyrinth-abyss of laws, codes, statutes, rules, regulations, fees, fines, permits, applications, registrations, licenses, etc. wherein there always seems to be a "Case Law" that can be used to defeat other "case law"

Anyway, I live in NY and did the chain of title to my Land to the original Grant or Patent in the Albany Archives. It is written in Dutch.
I obtained certified copies of it....

My Confusion: If all 'real estate' transactions are by way of Allodial Title in NY, then the mortgage and taxes diminish the title ? or eliminate true title?

If Allodial Title exists Only when No encumbrances on said Lands exists, then the Chase Bank mortgage would disqualify these lands from allodial title?

Did Chase mortgage the Real Estate? Is Real Estate the Land, Appurtenances, or Both? They have a secured interest in The House, The Soil, or Both?

If I satisfy the Debt, and Mortgage is Extinguished.... How do I eliminate all other encumbrances? I have no records, nor are there any in the County Clerks Records, in my name, of any other encumbrance, upon these Lands... i.e. TAX...

How did I enter into a contract to Subject these Lands to Taxation ? It is Private, Personal Property not used for Residential, Commercial, Agricultural purposes.

I can not Dis Cover a record or contract wherein I agreed to these Lands being taxed.

So.... Allodial title would proscribe the Gubamint from taxing these lands.... ?

It seems the land i currently "have Right to occupy" is a Result of [Fraud] Dutch Letters Patent.... and from what i Dis Covered, the Dutch were Trespassing on these Lands Occupied by Natives..... Who gave Any One the right to just "Grant" An Other the lands occupied by Others ???? its ridiculous. Letters Patents are Fraud by foreign 'kings' full of hubris..... giving away lands already occupied.


I do not believe any Man can OWN land. God created Man and Earth, Man is a custodian, or is Usufruct of the Earth, and this conveyancing of a "right" to land is double dipping. Don't We All Have a Right to some Land? Calculations show each man woman and child in my county would get over 8 acres each. So why am i paying for Land created by the Lord Our Father, for our use..... ?? It sounds like a bankster scheme of a ponzi tontine nature

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Re: Land Patents New York

Postby OldModelT » Monday December 8th, 2014 12:21 am MST

All I want is to live in peace on the land my family grew up on. Right now, there is a pending tax sale on it. I'm about to be evicted and rendered homeless. Friends of mine were evicted from their 400 acre farm that they had a land patent on and were rendered homeless. They lost everything. Apparently land patents are not recognized in New York. I would further say that there is no rule of law in New York. New York does as it pleases.

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Re: Land Patents New York

Postby KingWm » Monday December 8th, 2014 1:59 pm MST

OldModelT,
I am sorry to hear of your trouble. Land patents are recognized everywhere but they will not save you from a tax sale. The land patent does not prohibit the property owner from entering into contractual relations with others. If the property owner enters into a contractual relation to pay a property tax, the only ways to end that relation is are to sell the property, get an exemption or otherwise fulfill the terms of the property tax agreement. A land patent doesn't interfere with your right to contract; so, it can't abolish the contract or prevent a tax foreclosure.

I would venture to say that, while it may seem like they are lawless (and they may be to an extent), in reality it is more likely that there is a misunderstanding of the law on you and your friend's part. The solution is to learn the law and apply it, and you may find that you can avoid entering into such contracts in the first place. Have you read the Land 101 article in the forum and the land articles on the Team Law website?

KingWm.

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Re: Land Patents New York

Postby Admin » Friday December 12th, 2014 2:55 pm MST

:h: Orm & OldModelT:
New York State has been around acting through a private corporate body longer than any other State. Respectively, it has had property tax controls in place as long as or longer than any other venue in the United States of America. Perhaps that explains why they have nearly perfected the process of compelling the transfer of property taxes from sellers to buyers in order to keep their property taxing contracts intact once they are established.

Though, as you begin to discover the law, it may at first seem to be a “labyrinth-abyss of laws, codes, statutes,” etc., as you persistently follow the Standard for Review you will discover that, even in New York, the law is a relatively simple enough for almost anyone to learn and apply. Still, you can’t expect to understand it all overnight, without studying it from its source; or, without following the Standard for Review.

So, let’s take a look at some of the basic elements that may help you start to resolve your understanding and help you progress in your path of learning how to learn the law.

Though it’s generally true that all title to land in New York started out in allodial title, nothing can compel the people to maintain an allodial title over their land and the property appurtenant to it. However, to understand that statement it is necessary to understand what an “Allodial Title” is. Generally, “allodial” means:
    Free; not subject to the rights of any lord or superior; owned without obligation of vassalage or fealty; the opposite of feudal.
    A description given to the outright ownership of land that did not impose upon its owner the performance of feudal duties.
Thus, most people think of this as meaning that if the property is encumbered by property tax and/or mortgage agreements it is not an allodial title; however, because mortgages and property tax agreements are merely contractual obligations where it is your own word that binds you to the respective conditions, neither a mortgage contract nor a property tax agreement will place the property under some superior lord or obligation of vassalage—unless you fail to honor your respective agreement—in which case, in accord with your word (on the contract), the debt is sold and the property appurtenant to the land is passed to another owner; which would end the allodial title. So, let’s look at a better definition of the phrase in question:
In USLegal.com the lexicographers wrote:Allodial title is a real property ownership system where the real property is owed free and clear of any superior landlord. In this case, the owner will have an absolute title over his or her property. Property owned under allodial title is referred as allodial land. Allodial lands are the absolute property of their owner, and are not subject to any service or acknowledgment to a superior. In allodial lands there will not be any control by a superior landlord.
An individual’s allodial title is alienable in nature. Alienation can be done in the form of gift, mortgage or it may be distressed and restrained for collection of taxes. The allodial nature of a property will be lost when the property is transferred to more than one person. Therefore, to retain the allodial title s/he can transfer his or her property to another single individual.
For example, when an owner of a property dies leaving ownership to more than one heir, the allodial status of the property is lost.
The following is an example of a case defining allodial title:
Allodial title is defined as one that is free. [Stewart v. Chicago Title Ins. Co., 151 Ill. App. 3d 888 (Ill. App. Ct. 1987)
Thus, if a party that holds an allodial title splits the ownership of the land to multiple parties the Fee Simple (simple fealty) nature of the Title will remain but the allodium will be lost. Also, if the landowner separates the title of the land from the ownership of the property appurtenant to the land, the allodium is lost and a feudal title now exists.

Thus, in states where mortgage holders require borrowers to use Trust Deeds to convey the property appurtenant to the land to the Public Trustee for holding until the mortgage agreement is paid off, that conveyance removes any allodium or fee simple title and a feudal tenure is maintained until the mortgage is paid off. Though the true nature of such terms may be new to you, they are easily learned by people that make sure that they understand the terms and conditions of their agreements before they sign documents or otherwise enter into agreements.

The term you used: “true title”, is a marketing term often used by predatory marketers and others to enhance the possibility of getting their listeners to buy into their stories. It is not a legal term. Respectively, a title either exists or it does not exist; the nature of the title can be allodial, fee simple, feudal, etc.; but, it is what it is. Now, understand the Land Patent is the physical Title to the land because it establishes the term of the title (providential proof of the right to ownership) to the land as forever—that is: from creation (referenced at Genesis 1:28) through the End of time (or this world; whichever comes first).

Further, the nature of the title does not and cannot limit the rights of the landowner to contract; or, otherwise. Thus, if a party is a landowner with an allodial title to their land and they want to enter into a contractual agreement to secure the property appurtenant to that land as collateral for a loan the nature of the title to that land cannot keep that landowner from entering that agreement. Thus, contrary to Patriot Mythology and the predatory marketing world, the title to the land cannot have any effect on mortgages or property tax agreements (see: Land 101).

Property taxes are always entered into by agreement. Such agreements are primarily initiated in one of three ways:
  1. In accord with New York statute, regarding real estate contracts, the Seller agrees to pay the existent property tax from the date of assessment up to the time of the sale and the Buyer agrees to pay the property tax from the time of the sale forward; which taxes are paid by both parties at the time of the mandatory recording of the new Deed;
  2. The State holds an election wherein measures are passed that change the property tax assessment rates for the registered voters; and,
  3. The State sends out an assessment to a property owner within “the State” and the recipient pays the assessment acknowledging their agreement to the respective obligation.
Respectively, if you cannot find a record of one of those events; you are either not looking in the right place, the record may be lost or you aren’t a property tax payer.

Whether these issues are new to you or not; in most cases these facts are not the result of fraud or deceit; rather, they are the effect of contractual obligations that people enter into. Respectively, if they have a legitimate cause for relief from such matters due to someone acting in an unlawful way, the remedy is always: Learn the law and apply it. Of course, that is what Team Law exists; we help people learn how to learn the law so that they can learn how to apply the law properly. We do not do your work for you; rather, we help you learn how to learn firsthand from the source—the law itself, with its history, following the Standard for Review.

You indicated that you do not believe that man can own land; however, at Genesis 1:28, man is instructed by God to “take dominion” over the land. By definition, “Dominion” is synonymous with “Land” (see: Land 101). Thus, Genesis 1:28 includes the commandment of God to man to take the landownership—respectively, the description that follows of Adam walking over the land is the Hebrew language equivalent of describing Adam surveying the land to accept that responsibility. The property appurtenant to that land is another matter that we will not address here and now other than to say that the scripture is also clear that man is to take the stewardship over the property appurtenant to that land. For more support on these matters you will have to be a Team Law beneficiary so you can get Team Law beneficiary support.

The bottom line: though Land patents are the Title to the land and they are recognized everywhere the do not limit people from entering contracts. Respectively, they have no effect on mortgage or property tax obligations that were entered into after the land patent was issued. Those that promote anything contrary to that are most likely predatory marketers or agent provocateurs for the same. Still, the rule of law is available anywhere in this nation only when the people are willing to accept their God given responsibility to learn and apply it. Start with the Standard for Review. Continue by studying the law itself firsthand from the source. When you need help, Team Law is here; and, we welcome your support.

Nonetheless, we hope this information is helpful to you.
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